Fan Belt Replaced By Garage Now Starter Gets No Power

[dixie]

Galaxy Ghia X 2.3 Petrol R Reg

 

Garage were troubleshooting a rattling noise in fan belt area which they fixed with a new fan belt, and freeing of auto tensioner. Now when they turn the key nothing happens on testing no power is going to the starter motor. When I hold the key open the windows open so there is power somewhere ?

 

They seem to think it's the immobiliser and said that they could not get into the ecu with the machine ?

 

I seem to remember a red reset button somewhere but can't recall.

 

Central locking has never worked since I got the car (water in the footwell) I've had no water problems for over a year.

 

Any ideas

Edited June 5, 2008 by dixie

[turk90210]

well not sure on the petrol version but the diesel will still crank and run for 2 seconds if the immobilizer is faulty

The reset button you might be refering too I think is the fuel cut of so again shouldn't be related to your problem

I would investigate the wiring at the starter motor, and also the wiring from the ignition switch as I think (but correct me if Im wrong) the switches are the vw ones which are known for going and it is usually the starter which is affected first,

nearly forgot but make sure the earth to the engine is good aswell (usually bolted near the gearbox area) as that would stop it from turning if it was poor or broken

[dixie]

well not sure on the petrol version but the diesel will still crank and run for 2 seconds if the immobilizer is faulty

The reset button you might be refering too I think is the fuel cut of so again shouldn't be related to your problem

I would investigate the wiring at the starter motor, and also the wiring from the ignition switch as I think (but correct me if Im wrong) the switches are the vw ones which are known for going and it is usually the starter which is affected first,

nearly forgot but make sure the earth to the engine is good aswell (usually bolted near the gearbox area) as that would stop it from turning if it was poor or broken

 

 

Thanks, I mentioned the earth and they said that was okay and that they can turn it over with external power so I guess that eliminates it. They reckoned all immobilzers are different and that it is immmobilised. They are not taking responsibilty and said, although it's still in the garage, that I need an auto electrician and they haven't done anything but turn the key. (they did put on the new fan belt etc) Where do I stand it was running okay when it went in.

 

Sounds to me like the wiring or switch you suggested, hopefully they'll find it although it sat all day without them going near it.

 

Have also tried using the master key to start it but no joy.

[big_kev]

It sounds like they have popped a fuse.....assuming you have a manual and not an Auto.

[veedyf]

it went in o.k so you want it coming out o.k ...threaten them with trading standerds or something .....

they might have knocked a wire off or something ...or maybe just trying to get some cash out of you ......

if you want give me their no & your name & i will speak to them for you....i hate piss taking garages

i know that i am not a qualified mechanic but its only a proccess of ilimination ...alll they did was change the fanbelt.....

sounds like they are trying to shaft you mate.....

sorry rant over

[dixie]

I ended up today getting the AA to come and tow the car back to my house. Meantime the AA mechanic tried a few tests and said it's possibly the immobiliser but he wasn't convinced. He checked the starter for power and said the main power is getting there but not to the wire whatever that meant. He directly earthed it as well but got same result. Starter won't turn.

 

I spoke to someone at ford who said it wasn't the immobiliser because the red light in the door goes out. He said take the little wire off the starter( I guess he means the red wire at the end) and check for power with the ignition turned to the starter position, I earthed a wire to the battery earth and with a bulb in the middle put the other end to the red/black wire that I took off the end of the starter motor and turned the key but got no light. What does this mean I hear a click from the relays but the bulb doesn't light.

 

I have a good battery and the headlights dim a little when turning to start suggesting power is going to the starter but it's not getting to the red wire.

 

Can I try anything else

 

What might this mean

 

Help!

 

Thanks

[turk90210]

The thin red/black wire at the starter motor should become live when you turn the key to the starter position so if it is not then that is the fault that you need to trouble shoot. Theoretically that wire comes from the back of the ignition switch so that is where i would check next to see if the ignition switch is working properly ( as previously mentioned the switches do cause problems). There can however be relays in the circuit but i'm not sure on your model and i wont be able to check till saturday night, hopefully someone might be able to jump in and confirm before then for you

Just realizes that you dont mention if it is an auto-box or a manual, if it is an auto it will have an inhibitor switch fitted which kills the starter circuit so it cannot be started in gear

Let us know which box you have and we might be able to help more

[dixie]

The red/blk wire gets no power when turning to and holding ignition at starting position. The fuses were checked and okay under the dash and in the relay box.

 

It's a manual and I hear the relay clicking in relay box right hand side of engine compartment when I turn the ignition to start.

 

I also hear a faint whining sort of noise like a motor or something spinning for a few seconds.

 

I'm not sure how to check the switch but I thinks it's okay if the relays clicking.

 

The wiring diagram on the Hayes manual says the red/blk wire comes from the alternator (they changed the belt so were working in that area) don't kow if that has anything to do with it.

 

I've got the starter motor out now and hopefully will get it bench tested tomorrow or Mon, but my gut feeling is it's okay.

 

Thanks for your assistance I can supply pictures if necessary

 

One last thing before I took it home they put the computer on it and it said no codes stored or saved or words to that effect.

Edited June 6, 2008 by dixie

[dixie]

Just a bit more info

 

I've tried the red wire again with the starter out (it's dead) and there is no whinning noise now however there is a faint hissing noise when I turn and hold the key. Maybe irrelevant.

 

The relay that is clicking in the box is # 94

 

All other electrics seem to work except Central Locking which has not worked for well over a year

 

I will check the switch as soon as I know how or have someone check it for me....

Edited June 7, 2008 by dixie

[dixie]

I'm trying to figure out the wiring components of the starter and charging system. Does anyone know why the Hayes wiring diagram shows 2 batteries, listed as #1 Battery and #145 Battery 2.

 

Where is Battery 2

[djx]

im trying to figure out why you took the car away from the garage that broke it for you. you should have got them to fix the problem that, from what it sounds like, they created.

[dixie]

im trying to figure out why you took the car away from the garage that broke it for you. you should have got them to fix the problem that, from what it sounds like, they created.

 

 

Because they could not and would not fix it, left it in the car park and would not accept responsibility. When I find out what the problem is they will be hearing from me again.

Edited June 7, 2008 by dixie

[big_kev]

Where is Battery 2

 

In the compartment under the drivers seat......but you won't have one.....don't worry about it.

[big_kev]

Assuming that fuse 26 is ok try checking relay R14 ( can't remember what number it has on top of it check drawing in link below)

 

Link to fuses & relays Mk1 1998

[dixie]

Can't seem to locate fuse 26 numbered fuses go up to 22 it must be elsewhere or hidden underneath somewhere.

Here's some pictures the red and black loose wires on the head are test wires with a bulb in the middle

 

Under dash pic 1

under dash pic2

under dash cover

engine compartment relays

Engine

The Old Gal

Edited June 7, 2008 by dixie

[big_kev]

Ooops!

 

my mistake you have a 97 R reg not 98.....different fuse & relay setup.

 

back in a mo.

[big_kev]

As far as I can see its a direct feed ( no fuses ) from the ignition switch...position 3...to the starter motor relay.

 

Either the switch is faulty or the wiring is broken between it and the relay.

 

Is the relay ( solenoid) on these built onto the starter motor ?

 

If so you should be able to put a direct battery feed onto it and this will operate the relay and turn the starter motor....MAKING SURE THE CAR IS NOT IN GEAR FIRST !

 

If the battery is flat or the starter motor is jammed or faulty you should still hear the solenoid click.

[dixie]

As far as I can see its a direct feed ( no fuses ) from the ignition switch...position 3...to the starter motor relay.

 

Either the switch is faulty or the wiring is broken between it and the relay.

 

Is the relay ( solenoid) on these built onto the starter motor ?

 

If so you should be able to put a direct battery feed onto it and this will operate the relay and turn the starter motor....MAKING SURE THE CAR IS NOT IN GEAR FIRST !

 

If the battery is flat or the starter motor is jammed or faulty you should still hear the solenoid click.

 

Thanks great at last we have partial success, the starter motor tested okay so back into the car. Then we tried it as normal still dead. So unplugged the red/blk wire and put a direct feed from the pos terminal, as you suggested, with a wire into the spade end for the red/blk wire. Bingo the starter turned and we got the car running. This was already tried by the garage and the AA mechanic to no avail I think they did it differently. Ignition was switched to position 2 when the car started and it ran for a few minutes till I switched it off.

 

Ok so that eliminates the immobiliser, the starter and just about everything else. We plugged it all back together and it was dead so its definately as you say "the switch is faulty or the wiring is broken between it and the relay"

 

Is there a way I can test the switch and the wire, I'm not sure how to approach it or where to look.

[big_kev]

First check the plugs on the back of the central junction box ( fuse/relay box) make sure none of them have come loose.

 

Check the wire ( I think its Red/Black) coming of position 3 on the ignition switch...again make sure its still connected.

[dixie]

First check the plugs on the back of the central junction box ( fuse/relay box) make sure none of them have come loose.

 

Check the wire ( I think its Red/Black) coming of position 3 on the ignition switch...again make sure its still connected.

 

Thank you!

 

Sorted eventually we took the ignition switch apart and found there was a lot of fine plastic bits blocking the wheel that makes the contacts close at position 3.

 

A bit of a clean and poke around and we managed to get it working.

 

I need to replace the switch on the end of the ignition block next time I'm out, but meatime the car is running again.

 

Thanks to the forum and all who contributed esp big_kev

 

A final note the garage had cut and probed the 4 wires at the ignition switch and must have known there was no power coming from the switch to the red/blk wire at position 3.

Either they are thick a s#'/# or they have tried to con me into paying a big bill

Edited June 8, 2008 by dixie

[big_kev]

Either they are thick a s#'/# or they have tried to con me into paying a big bill

[veedyf]

huhuhumm ...didnt someone mention it..... ;) ;)

What do you actually need for it as i have keys switch & black connector off the gal that i am breaking...ring me on 07837 695 887 if so

Edited June 8, 2008 by veedyf

[dixie]

huhuhumm ...didnt someone mention it..... ;) ;)

What do you actually need for it as i have keys switch & black connector off the gal that i am breaking...ring me on 07837 695 887 if so

 

 

You did you did ;)

 

Here's a photo of the bit sorry about the quality hope you can make it out. It the plastic part that clips onto the back of the barrel and where the wires plug, plugs into.

 

 

What else have you got that might be of interest

Edited June 8, 2008 by dixie

[veedyf]

cant make that out ...without looking at mine....will have a look a mine tomorrow

tell me what you need and ill tell you if ive got it ...its easier

[dixie]

Here's some more pictures in case it may help someone else solve a similar starting issue

 

The starter which was okay plus the ingintion switch oh and a broken mirror in case you have one spare :unsure:

 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2008 by dixie